{The List} Civilizations ver. II

[Brent]

more precise system of traits

The following information is combined for two possible systems using the same eight possible traits as Civ3: One primary and one secondary trait (the two with the most points for each civ), and 10 points divided among the eight traits. I welcome comments, alternate opinions for the same or an alternate system, and civs not listed in the same or alternate systems. Hopefully my stats will be of some use no matter what system we end up with.

America: industry 6, expansion 4
Arabs: religion 5, expansion 4, military 1
Aztecs: military 6, religion 3, agriculture 1
Babylon: science 6, religion 4
Byzantium: sea 4, science 3, commerce 2, military 1
Carthage: industry 5, sea 3, commerce 2
Celts: religion 4, military 3, agriculture 2, commerce 1
China: industry 5, military 3, science 2
Dutch: sea 4, agriculture 3, industry 2, military 1
Egypt: industry 6, religion 4
England: commerce 5, expansion 3, seafaring 2
France: commerce 6, industry 4
Germany: expansion 4, commerce 3, military 2, science 1
Greece: science 5, commerce 4, sea 1
Hittites: commerce 5, expand 3, military 2
Inca: expansion 4, agriculture 3, commerce 2, military 1
India: commerce 6, religion 4
Iroquois: expansion 4, religion 3, agriculture 2, commerce 1
Japan: military 5, religion 4, sea 1
Korea: commerce 6, science 4
Maya: industry 5, agriculture 3, military 2
Mongolia: military 5, expand 4, industry 1
Ottomans: science 5, industry 4, military 1
Persia: industry 4, science 3, military 2, commerce 1
Portugal: sea 5, expand 3, commerce 2
Russia: science 6, expand 4
Scandinavia: military 5, sea 3, expand 2
Spain: religion 4, sea 3, commerce 2, expand 1
Sumer: science 4, agriculture 3, commerce 2, military 1
Zulu: military 6, expansion 4

[Brent]

Roughly the most popular civs judging from this thread, ignoring my own opinion:

highest ranked:

Poland, Austria, Israel, Armenia, Anasazi, Moundbuilders, Shonghai, Ethiopia

next rank:

Nazca, Khmer, Thailand, Maori

honorable mentions:

Inuit, Ashanti, Mali, Polynesians, Olmecs, Champa, Aborigines

voted "maybe" by more than one person:

Harappa, Tibet

[Brent]

For those of you who want fewer civs than in Civ3, here's my opinion on the most essential ones to keep:

America, Maya, China, Japan, England, Germany, France, Russia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Babylon, Arabs

A lower rank of more to keep depending on how many should be in:

Aztecs, Scandinavia, Spain, India, Mongolia

[Max Sinister]

I think India should be kept since it's the country with the second-largest pop. in the world, and the Mongols, because they had the biggest empire ever, and the Aztecs, because... well, I just like 'em...

[Nikolai]

I really hope Firaxis change the "Scandinavians" back to Vikings!

[DarkCloud]

wait a second, they had a 'scandinavians' civ in the expansion packs instead of vikings in civ III?

Now I hate Civ III even more

[Nikolai]

I'm pretty sure that's the name yes..

[Brent]

Ruler Traits

One idea would be for civs to have the exact same trait system as Civ3 (two of the same eight traits), and the ruler could add a third trait or add an additional bonus to one of the civ traits. Or maybe the civ has 20 points divided among the eight traits and the ruler adds 5 extra points.

Using the first system:

Andrew Jackson of America: Expansionist
JFK of America: Scientific
Uncle Sam of America: Militaristic

Moses of Israel: Religious
Joshua of Israel: Militaristic
David of Israel: Militaristic

Hawaii- Loa of Polynesia: Seafaring

Joseph of Egypt: Agricultural

Steven of Hungary: Religious

Isabella of Spain: Seafaring

[Heresson]

Can't we merge Greeks or Romans with Byzantines?

[Brent]

I could do without Byzantines, but then I don't know much. I guess to me they have an obscurity appeal.

I just noticed I left out Rome from my traits list.

[Heresson]

No, no, Byzantines should stay. But they are Roman, kind of... and Greek too. Having them and Romans and Greeks as separate civs would be like having Gaulic, Frankish and French civ...

[Brent]

Or like having Hittites and Ottomans, or Sumer and Babylon, or America and the Iroquois

[Heresson]

There's a HUGE difference. Hittites and Ottomans, Sumer and Babylon, America and the Iroquis, each this pair constitutes of completely different ethnic and rase tribes:
Hittites were indoeuropean, Turks are altaic.
Sumers - God knows what they were, Babylonians were Semitic.
Americans are indoeuropean, Iroqis are native Indian.
Yoiu may argue when it comes to Sumer and Babylon (and I DO think there should be a MESOPOTAMIAN civ, which would represent Sumers, Acadians, Babylonians, Assyrians and Mitanni), but there is no direct cultural or administrative link between Hittites and Ottomans or America and Iroquis, while Byzantines were simply hellenised Romans continiuing the tradition of both ancient Greeks and Romans. Yes, I love Byzantines as You see if You look at my avatar, but I just think that that's a case that have to be well discussed.

[Niptium]

I'm concerned here with the list of civilizations.

Sure, there is a course to find real civilizations that could be added to the list but having Akkadians, Cambodians, Olmèques and Incas isn't the way for me. I mean, geez ! Sure they had their particuliar culture but the impact they had on humanity's history is so relatively small it would be a mistake to add them. Let's take some other countries that had a real impact on History and put them in Civilization IV.

What about the Portuguese ? They colonized half of South America (Brazil), Africa and Asia. Same thing for the Dutch. Sure the Portuguese have a very similar culture to the Spanish and the Dutch were behaving pretty much like the English but they had a much bigger impact on History then let's say the Sioux, Hungary and to some extent the Iroquois (although the Iroquois pretty much helped the English have a long term supremacy over the French in North America).

I'm against having more Africans, Asians, Middle-East and especially Amerindian civilizations in the game. Let's not forget that one of the most decisive (if not the uttermost) phase in History was from 1492 to 1776. Colonization changed humanity beyond everything we could ever imagine. I think some things could be borrowed over from Colonization/Victoria/Imperialism2 so to make this phase more accurate now. In previous Civs, this colonial period was non-existent or was ppretty much botched over.

[Niptium]

To me, the essentials are the following.

French, English, Spanish, Americans, Japaneses, Chineses, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Germans, Russians, Indians, Egyptians, Persians/Arabs/Ottomans.

To the mix, there is some of these (depending on some consensus issuing from debates) that could be added : Portuguese, Dutch, Vikings/Swedes, Tribal Africans, Tribal Amerindians, Carthagenians/Phoenicians, Celts and Aztecs.